How to use Trello to optimize your email sequence

Presented live on Tuesday, July 31, 2018

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You’ve been hired to optimize an existing email sequence to move prospects to the point of saying ‘yes’, great! …but how? How are you gonna organize all the information you’ll need – the information to learn what’s missing in the existing emails… what’ll need to be done differently… where all that voice of customer data fits in?

In this live tutorial, conversion copywriter Joanna Wiebe shows you how to use Trello to organize all the pieces you need to optimize an existing email sequence.


Joanna Wiebe: So, Trello is basically, it’s called a kanban board, if you’re familiar with kanban, as this project management concept out of Japan. We don’t have to get into those details. Point is, Trello has a really nice, easy system of cards across columns. So you create columns, you give them labels generally. Then you organize information in them.

Joanna Wiebe: Again, that’s usually something where you’re organizing projects like to do, doing, and done, or things like that. Those might be three columns that you have. But it’s also very useful for copywriters, when we’re organizing a lot of information. To be honest, it is where I would like to see Airstory features in some way, I would love to see us do more with our notes that we have inside Airstory because I can’t send research straight to Trello, but I can to Airstory.

Joanna Wiebe: So, I won’t get into the details, but the column layout is really awesome for organizing information, especially when you have a lot of it. So today I want to talk to you about how to use Trello to optimize your email sequence, and that means you have an existing email sequence in place, and you want to see what might not be working about it, what needs to be changed or improved.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, cool. So that’s our job, that’s our task, a client hired you from that, your boss did, or you’re doing this for your own work. This is gonna work really great for selling products in particular. So as I mentioned before we were kind of doing the pre chat before we got down to business, you generally when I’m talking to you about writing copy, I’m doing so with the goal of having you go sell something with this. Sell something of value to people who want that thing, and will be paying, happy, customers.

Joanna Wiebe: So if you’re like, “Well, what about my free course?” That might still work in here, definitely, but that’s not gonna be the focus of today’s training. We’re gonna talk about what if you have a product to sell? What do you do in your sequence, especially your onboarding sequence, if you’re selling software as a service or software of any kind, what do you to move people to the point of saying yes to you?

Joanna Wiebe: So I’m going to share my screen in just a second. This is, as some of you may know, we’ve been working with a lot of cool companies in what’s called the summer of email. That’s where we’re doing a lot of testing with these companies that have said, “Hey, can you come optimize our emails first?” And we’re like, “Yeah, this is awesome.” So we’re working with a company called Canba, which a lot of you may know, and when I was working through over the last week, I was working through optimizing their SAS onboarding emails. SAS again, software as a service.

Joanna Wiebe: So, I was working on this, and I was in Airstory, trying to organize, they’re a lot of voice of customer data, but also trying to make sense of the emails that they have in play today. What’s going on in them, where’s an opportunity? What’s missing here? What do we need to do differently? So this, I switched over to Trello, and I was just like, “Maybe that’s just a better way to look at it,” because I was already working in notes. I was like, “Maybe there’s something I can do over there.”

Joanna Wiebe: So I switched to Trello, and this is the first time I had done this this way. I was otherwise tagging notes in Airstory, which again, we built, we love, it just doesn’t do this exact this thing. I was taking notes in Airstory previously, and then I was dragging them under headlines inside on the Airstory document, and that wasn’t satisfying enough. I didn’t get a single view of it. So Trello, when I went over there, I was like, “Huh, Trello gives me a pretty awesome single view of all of the emails that Canba currently has in play.”

Joanna Wiebe: So that’s a little preamble to what was going on, and if you’re like, “That doesn’t make sense,” it will in a second. Just a little bit of information. So I’m going to share my screen. One moment please. Okay, so you should be seeing how to optimize a sequence with Trello. Right now I’m gonna go into presentation mode, so I can’t see your chats if you have any.

Joanna Wiebe: So, let’s do this. So how to optimize a sequence with Trello. This is what I did, this is what I recommend you do, this is the tutorial itself. Step one: determine the message of each email that’s already in the sequence. So what is it about? What is the email trying to communicate? What’s the goal of the email? What’s it trying to do? And this is just a matter of look at it. That’s it, just look at it, and then we come back and basically what does it mean? What’s it about? And some people sometimes have challenges figuring out what an email’s about, and if you have a challenge figuring out what it’s about, it’s probably time to scrap the email and start again.

Joanna Wiebe: So your goal is to go through the existing emails one by one in the sequence, and determine the message of each email. So here’s an example, this was one of Canba’s emails. The head line reads exclusive access to free photos and illustrations. What’s this about? Probably photos and illustrations, free photos and illustrations, okay. So you go through and you determine the message of each email in the sequence. Then you go over to Trello and you create these columns, these six columns where you’re gonna put one card per email under all.

Joanna Wiebe: So the six columns are: problem aware, solution aware, product aware, most aware, and most aware with high intent. Anybody who’s tuned into Tutorial Tuesdays before, or has taken any of our training will be not surprised to see the stages of awareness in play here, because we are trying to move people through a funnel essentially through these stages of awareness, which we think of as a spectrum to get to them to the place of most aware with high intent, which is where the sale is a lot easier.

Joanna Wiebe: You don’t start people down there, they’re not ready for it yet, they need to be brought onboard with the thing that you’re selling the way it’s going to dramatically improve and even transform their lives. So you have these five stages of awareness. Don’t worry about unaware, we’re not gonna worry about that in email. And then a final column called all. All is where you put the cards for each email you have. So in the case of Canba, I went through, and you can see under all and if it’s too small for you, don’t worry, I’m gonna read it out, and there will be a replay too so can you look more closely and get notes on this again. So feel free to just sit back and watch right now.

Joanna Wiebe: All says we have seven cards inside all. Trello again has cards in columns, and you just move things around across the columns. So I’ve put these in order in the email order they appear in sequence. One, free photos and illustrations. Two, magic resize. Three, premium templates. Four, brand kit. Five, folders. Six, create your own templates, and seven, photo folder. So those are seven emails in that order that Canba sends out for onboarding their users.

Joanna Wiebe: I gave them a number so I would remember as I move things around later, as these cards start moving to different columns. I gave them the number of the email, the order that they go in, in the sequence, so I won’t later go, “Uh oh, magic resize? Where did that sit on the sequence?” Just give them that number. And again, each one of these cards is just this title that says … that’s the feature, that’s the thing that was discussed in the email. What you notice here is that everything that we have under all, every email is about a feature.

Joanna Wiebe: Now that’s not always gonna be true when you are going through and optimizing your email sequences, so don’t think that, “Oh, should I always be looking for the feature and titling a card with that feature?” No, that is the message. That was the focus of the email in the case of Canba’s existing email sequence. That doesn’t mean it’s right, all we’re trying to do right now is say, “Here’s the key message, here’s what that thing, that email is trying to communicate to our subscribers,” and we’re just put those under all, okay? Pretty straightforward.

Joanna Wiebe: Six columns, one card per email in all. Good. Then you wanna drag each card, representing each email to the right stage of awareness. What we see here is that all of Canba’s emails for these onboarding emails, they all fit into product awareness. Nothing is most aware. Nothing is most aware with high intent, and we have to ask ourselves, should they be solution aware or are they ready to be product aware. Now usually when someone sounds up for your SAS trial, they’re pretty product aware. But we can’t guarantee that they are, we don’t know what point they signed up for.

Joanna Wiebe: Generally speaking, we don’t know. Did they just arrive on your home page, see the start free trial button, and just hop into your trial and now they’re getting these emails and they know very little about you? So sometimes we may need to back it up and start your sequence back at problem aware or solution aware. We don’t know that thing yet, all we know right now is that the existing seven emails in Canba’s sequence fit under product aware. None of them are trying to sell, none of them are talking about anything other than features.

Joanna Wiebe: Now if you’re like, “Okay, how will I know where to put these emails? How will I know which one these go under? What it is about an email that makes me believe it’s for a solution aware person? Or most aware with high intent person?” That’s when it’s basically built for us. So, screen shot this, but this is really straightforward stuff. If you have been giving some thought to stages of awareness to make people move to the point of saying yes to you. Problem aware and email is likely gonna be about a problem. It’s not gonna talk about a feature, it’s way back before products even been introduced.

Joanna Wiebe: Solution aware is mostly about the options to solve a problem. It’s again, unlikely to get into features because the product is not fully introduced yet. We might start talking about the product in here as a solution, but we’re unlikely to get into features. A product aware email is about a feature and/or the product itself. That’s just what it is, it’s an email that’s like, “Here’s this feature inside X,” or, “Here’s this video inside my course,” or whatever that might be.

Joanna Wiebe: Most aware is an email that a copywriter would identify as a sales email, and I want yo to pay attention to that because most of our high intent is an email that basically anyone would identify as a sales email. So it might have an incentive, urgency, scarcity, really heavy focus on data and social proof to support people buying. The call to action will likely be something around purchasing. So when you’re going through and trying to figure out where to put each email in the sequence, under which column, just use this as a general guide for you.

Joanna Wiebe: This is how we’re gonna identify gaps, right? So once we drag these emails into the right column, we can say, “Why should we be doing anything in solution awareness? Why aren’t we doing anything in most aware? This is supposed to be a sales sequence, right?” So most aware and most aware with high intent are glaring gaps. We need to start thinking through what to do with them. So you start putting notes in there. Think on the board, on the Trello board, and start creating new cards that fill in your ideas.

Joanna Wiebe: So solution aware. I’m wondering as I’m looking at this, okay we got product aware pretty well covered, solution aware do we believe that they’ve actually abandoned hope of using other solutions? Are they still using other solutions? Are they considering Canba against Photoshop or against hiring a designer or against using Fiverr, or whatever else it might be. But we wanna start thinking through with the possibility that maybe we should be talking, we should be writing a solution awareness. Maybe we should start out with that.

Joanna Wiebe: It doesn’t mean you will. But this is the part where you start just thinking through the gaps and considering your options. Most aware, should we talking about a cool case study that we showcase, or most aware with high intent. Should we be listing out features and benefits and then any other incentives that come with it? So you just wanna start adding ideas, no ideas are wrong yet, you can always delete or archive a card as you go.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, so part of this, part of what I want to keep in mind as well, when we are moving people toward the point of converting, using email, sorry [inaudible 00:13:36] using email, we have this really awesome opportunity to do what’s called make the mouse bigger. I’ve given a few talks that feature this, so if you’ve seen one of those talks, you’re already familiar with this idea of making the most bigger, but here’s what I’m talking about, and you can see that I added, and then color coded two big notes under solution product aware that say are we making the mouse bigger here?

Joanna Wiebe: Now what does that mean? That means, goes back to this old quote, that’s the foreword of a book by a copywriter named Jean Schwartz, he wrote the foreword. And he said, it’s not about building better mouse traps. It’s about building larger mice, and then building terrifying fear of them in your customers. Okay, so we’re talking about not selling Canba as the better mouse trap. That’s not our focus. It doesn’t mean it won’t come out that Canba is the better mouse trap, but what we have to consider is life without Canba a scary thing for people? Are are they cool with giving up on Canba?

Joanna Wiebe: So our job is not just to sell a better mouse trap, but to build up these large mice, this fear of life without … and I say fear and you have to just take that with a grain of salt because I never mean fear mongering or doing sketchy things, it’s all about being a good copywriter, not a skeezy person, but knowing that, people need to feel something about life without the solution you’re trying to sell is your job as a copywriter, and then building a terrifying fear of them in your customers. Doesn’t have to be terrifying fear again, but do they get the consequence in their lives of not choosing your solution?

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, so when we’re thinking of planning and optimizing a sequence for emails, we do have room across emails to build these larger mice. We can take time over the course of a week, two weeks, three weeks, however long your sequence goes for, to use email to help kind of build this larger mouse. Okay. So know that to be true, I’ve made a note for myself here so it’s solution and product aware, that’s really good product opportunity in those emails. Should I even add any to solution aware to make the mouse bigger?

Joanna Wiebe: So then you just want to keep filling in gaps with ideas and questions, go back to problem aware. Add a note in there if you’re thinking are people possibly problem aware? Add a note in there if you’re thinking are people possibly problem aware? Again, it doesn’t lead in the end, you will change your sequence to add in problem aware. Just throw all of your notes down as you go. Keep fleshing out most aware, most aware with high intent as new ideas come up, maybe you’re looking through what the competition is doing, what people outside of the space are doing. What people are absolutely saying about what moved them to finally say yes to the solution that you’re selling?

Joanna Wiebe: What moved people to say yes, permanently to Canba for work? That’s the kind of stuff that needs to find its way into our most aware and most aware with high intent emails in particular. Okay, so we keep filling it in, we add as you have ideas that dig deeper into each of the emails that you are considering writing or that already exist. You wanna add those as comments on each card. So you can put a lot of data about a single card or idea onto a card without really having to do much, and I would just encourage you to explore Trello and see what you can do.

Joanna Wiebe: You can see here if you look, under product aware there’s the email folders, and as you can see I’ve started reorganizing these cards as I’ve been thinking through different things, so these emails are no longer in the order that they used to be in. But folder is one of the cards there and it has two comments on it, brand kit has one, premium templates has two, that’s just an indicator for me that when I’m writing the emails now, I should go into those and see what other notes I make.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, so then you’re reordering the emails through product aware and into most aware and most aware with high intent with the awareness vector in mind. Now, by the time I got here, and I’ve added this little box down at the bottom to focus you on these emails. As you get toward the end of product aware, you’re starting to get into most aware. But I didn’t move those emails into most aware yet. And let me show you though, so you this is how you organize, this is how you plan the sequence and optimize a sequence. Now it’s time for you to go break the sequence.

Joanna Wiebe: And I won’t pretend that I do all my work in Trello, say, “Okay, am I absolutely done?” And then go over and start working in document. It’s more fluid than that. I spent a lot of the initial time in Trello and in Airstory, and then I went over to separate doc and started working in that. So you’re gonna work with a bunch of different tools, Trello is just one of them. You may work in Trello, and then go over to your doc, and go back to Trello and move things around. That’s cool, it’s your process. Trello should help you not get in the way, that’s the point.

Joanna Wiebe: So we’ve reordered the emails with the awareness spectrum in mind, and that leaves us with the email recommendations that I’m making to Canba, and I’ll read through those for you. So, as you can see, what I want to point out, this is the table of contents for it. I have organized them based on stages of awareness. If you’re familiar with the case study we did for Wistia, for optimizing their emails, you’ll remember that we also, in that case, reorganized emails to move people from product to most and most aware with high intent.

Joanna Wiebe: That was what we were doing there, we’re doing the same thing here because that’s what we always do. That’s what we wanna do, and we’re gonna test these emails. So the first email in the sequence is called magic resizing. Again, that’s just what it’s about. It’s for early product awareness. And we’ve got along side it early product awareness and dazzle slash start with a bang. So what I really wanna focus you on is not what the email’s about, but the order that these go in.

Joanna Wiebe: So the first email is all about something for early product awareness, the second email is still considering our reader as new to the product, so early product awareness, same for the third email. So the first three emails that they get are closer to solution awareness than they are to full product awareness. So we’re pulling people in with the best features ones are gonna be stickiest for them, the ones that are going to dazzle them most, that sort of thing.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay? So we have three product awareness that are early, then we have two that are midway through the product awareness spectrum, and then we get into higher product awareness which we know is moving them toward this position of most aware. So we have one high product awareness, which is that feature that’s a favorite feature. Then we have a bunch of most aware emails, and that’s what we’re starting to actually sell in those. We have four of those. And then we finish with, or we have two … there’s a 12th one in here that you can’t see, because it cut off. But yeah, we have the final two emails that are both most aware with high intent, and those are brand new sales emails that we’ve written because the original sequence didn’t have any emails for most aware with high intent. It didn’t even have emails for most aware.

Joanna Wiebe: What we’ve done, is we’ve taken the emails that were about free photos and illustrations, the animator, premium templates and create your own templates, those were features under product aware, and we’ve rewritten them as soft sales emails, okay? So now there’s a lot here when it comes to planning your sequence and thinking through stages of awareness and writing a soft sales email versus the hard sales email versus an email that’s a really light product awareness, pull them into our brand gently kind of thing.

Joanna Wiebe: So, point here, your takeaway I hope is that you should use your sequence to move people through that light funnel, the stages of awareness, and that you can use Trello to see where the gaps are there and where you have big opportunities to optimize those emails. Okay. So I’m gonna stop sharing, I see that some chats are going on. Stop share.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, cool. Hopefully that’s pretty clear for people. And if it’s not, let’s go through some questions. So I see a few questions there. This is a really good question. So anonymous says, but if this is onboarding, aren’t they all most aware? No. Even your existing paying customers might not be most aware, which is where term comes from. Right? Like unless they stop having a need for your product. If they still need your product, most aware, or most aware with high intent, you have to know a lot about a product. You have to know a lot to be there.

Joanna Wiebe: And that doesn’t mean just know it, you have to have felt value in your life from that, like a good amount. Or this fear that you might not feel that value and you recognize that there is a value there. So most people do star their onboarding sequence in the wrong place. They think, “Oh, people just need to hear better features.” But you have to think about the various, where people are really coming from and how much they actually know. We all love to say oh nobody reads online, so you try to push people into your trial right away, and have they had a chance to really engage? They might’ve watched a video or looked at a few demos, or someone might’ve told them about you.

Joanna Wiebe: They go and try it out or they have one problem to solve in one moment, like I wanna make a Facebook image. So I’m gonna go over to Canba because someone told me about them, I’m gonna whip something together, and oh, I want it to magically resize, so I’m gonna upgrade right now to get that. And once I’m done doing that, I’m just gonna bail. That’s the harsh reality for so many of us, is that people come in for a one and done kind of thing for a lot of solutions we’re selling, or they give up on it. They might buy a course or buy a ticket to your event, and by the time that credit card bill comes in, they’re like, “Hmm, do I really need that after all?”

Joanna Wiebe: And they start thinking through that, and that’s bad for you, because initially they did need it. But if you live in a world where you believe that people, just because they say yes to you once, they’re gonna keep saying yes to you forever and ever. That’s not the case. So we want to move them to the point of being aware and being most aware with high intent. And once they’ve got there, that doesn’t mean we’re done. We’re always gonna want to keep making sure that they’re getting value and recognizing that value and attaching it to what we do as a company, what they’re using of our solution, so it’s never, ever, ever done.

Joanna Wiebe: And no, it never starts there either. Yay, okay. But it’s a really good question. Okay, L.J. said, “I didn’t know Canba would let me make…” Oh, I don’t know if this is about Canba, okay. “I didn’t know Canba would let me make professional Wikipedia [inaudible 00:25:07] until recently. I actually took a break from Canba to join this meeting.” Cool. So do you think it could be multiple campaign sequences as a way for different affiliate products and have a long sequence of multiple campaigns.

Joanna Wiebe: I can’t see why not. I would say go do it, and I’ve never seen stages of awareness fail, and I’ve been doing this for 15 years and I’ve never seen it fail, so I would never say no I don’t think that’s possible, I would definitely say yes. I don’t know what your sequences are, I don’t know where people are starting and what they’re an affiliate for. If your product has a market fit already, things like that. But yeah, I’d give it a shot, and awesome about Canba.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, Amy says, “How do you know how many emails make for each stage of awareness?” So you don’t. You know that there is a spectrum, right? And that it’s not buckets. The problem with Trello, sadly, is that it looks like you’re dealing with buckets or silos and you’re not. It’s not a big problem, you just have to keep that in your mind. Some things are in product aware, and then drag them over to most aware, etc., etc., which I didn’t end up doing because I just hopped over to my document, started working in their instead. But you would wanna do that if that makes sense for you.

Joanna Wiebe: How many emails? You won’t know. But, the point is, that you wanna go through and listen to what people are saying about your product, the value that you’re getting from it, other solutions they’ve considered. If they’re deriving a lot of value really quickly from one or two features that you have, and you know those are getting to an aha moment, then you’re kind of in good shape just by talking about those and maybe driving those home, but it could mean that you have three emails that you send under product awareness, and then you might start getting into sales emails right after. You might not have to say anything about other solutions or worry about making the mouse bigger.

Joanna Wiebe: But then there are other cases where that’s not true, where you have a solution that’s very similar to other solutions and you have to make sure that you are really digging into the high value that you’re gonna provide. Sometimes that will not mean putting a lot of emails under product awareness because it’s not about the features very often, right? You have to just be careful that if emails go under product awareness, that just because they’re about a feature or part of your product, still make sure that they’re not actually about that feature.

Joanna Wiebe: So if you’re gonna talk about magic resize as a feature in Canba, it’s not about magic resize, right? It’s about saving five minutes every single time you wanna turn that Twitter image into something that can go on Facebook now and the manual, the pain of that, and thinking how big does a Pinterest graphic have to be versus how big does a Facebook image, or Facebook cover have to be? And having separate files somewhere with that information in it. So it’s not about that feature even though you’re selling them on the feature. It’s still gonna be about that and what they’re really going through. Hopefully that is helpful.

Joanna Wiebe: Joan says, “Are there qualifiers in the sequence?” This is, well only those open get the next thing on the sequence. We have some triggers that we’re hoping to test. So if someone opens an email that is about folders, and that’s an email that we’ll send early on. So you’re gonna use Canba folders. If I open that. I’m not sure if the rule is gonna be right if I open it, or if I click it, then I’ll get sent the next email about photo folders. So if I’ve shown interest in folders, then shortly thereafter I’ll get another email that’s like, “Hey, that was cool. Look at these ones now.” And that happens again later with templates.

Joanna Wiebe: So if you’re interested in premium templates and you click and open that email, then you’re gonna get a triggered email after that that’s like, and you can create your own templates. So, this is a preplanned sequence, but there are things that will trigger new activities, new events, cool? Cool. Okay, anonymous says, “Hi,” Hi. “I looks like the final recommendations didn’t include anything around problem ware or solution ware. It just skips straight to problem ware,” yep. But Trello talked about the mouse. What happens to the mouse?

Joanna Wiebe: So, the mouse is still under product aware, you’ll remember inside the Trello board. I don’t wanna pull people back to solution aware when they’re already in product called Canba for Work. So my question to myself on the Trello board is but do we need to mention other solutions? Do we? And that’s just a question. It’s not answered. As we go through and listen to voice of customer data, it would be like, oh no, people who use Canba for work and are happy, paying customers, haven’t really mentioned anything about other solutions. But what we did find is that of course they do mention other solutions. So our job is not to pull them back and start the sequence with hey, here’s why we’re better than Photoshop, we’re better than Sketch, we’re better than using Fiverr to get someone to create a graphic for you. We’re not gonna pull them back to that that.

Joanna Wiebe: We’re gonna use that message at different points when it makes sense in the sequence that starts with early product awareness. So problem aware, no. That’s too far back. We’ll still talk about problems, but they’re already using the product, so we know that they’re at a level of product awareness, we just don’t know how deep that is. How much do they know, and it’s like that in particular how much value do they believe they’re going to get from this? Not how much do they know about the product? You could know every single feature because you’ve memorized a comparison chart, but not know the value because you haven’t felt it yet. So we want to make sure that they’re going to feel that value, using its features.

Joanna Wiebe: So no to problem aware, light no to solution aware. We’re just going to make sure that we have that in our minds as we’re writing. So, we’re still making the mouse bigger as we go, and that’s why every email that I wrote in early product awareness through to product awareness. We’re gonna look at the first five emails use the product framework agitation solution. So that’s where again, we’re talking about making the mouse bigger. This is your life when you have to go without magic resize, or this is your life when you’re not organizing your stuff in folders, or this is your life when you’re the only one in Canba and your team is sending you requests to make tiny tweaks to things you don’t have time for, you’re gonna make your team for that.

Joanna Wiebe: So that’s the kind of stuff where we are still making the mouse bigger, it’s just happening in the product emails, cool? Which can happen all the time. Ame says, “At which stage should we tell the prospects a story? Can we still do it in the most aware stage as well? Or is that most [inaudible 00:32:15] problem and solution?” So I don’t know what your story is. I assume the story that you wanna tell is a story that matters to your prospect, like a story that’s about them. Like, here’s the pain you’re feeling, or something like that, or here’s the delightful thing you want to feel, and you can tell them that at any point.

Joanna Wiebe: So this isn’t talking through a hero’s journey or anything like that. There are many different ways to plan a sequence. This is the way to plan a sequence to move people through those stages of awareness. And that’s not planning, it’s again, optimizing. You can use it to plan, but I’ve shown you today how to optimize. So yo can use stories at any point. I’m not the person that people go to when they’re like, “Let’s talk about stories that sell.” That’s not me. That’s not gonna be me. That’s more of an Alora, Weaver kind of thing. Cool.

Joanna Wiebe: Alfred says, “Hi, Joanna, would you use this also for Facebook ads as in different ads for different levels of awareness?” Yeah. So, definitely. And I think that’s actually a really good use of it too. The Trello board is just awesome, right? You can put anything up at the top, when you put those stages of awareness up there, and then try to organize the messages you already have. This could be like when you’re gonna do a product launch, or any sort of launch and you, maybe you were thinking of just going on a product hunt and throwing a bunch of messages at them, but if you can organize those messages underneath where they’re actually fitting and they can do the same thing for market sophistication if you decide to do that as well. There’s lots of different ways to do it, and the Trello board is definitely great for that.

Joanna Wiebe: Cool, good idea. Malchi says, “Regarding the last question,” hopefully we remember what that was, “will everybody get all the emails, or just those that hit the triggers that you set up?” So it’s a typical onboarding sequence. We have plans to do other versions of this with Canba, but that’s after we get this one test out the door, just to see what happens. This hasn’t been tested yet, trust me no matter what happens, win, lose, or draw, we are going to be sharing the results with you. So stay tuned for more about how this actually works out in the end. But will everybody get all the emails? Unless you … there’s really no reason where you won’t, because when you sign up for Canba for work trial, you already enter your credit card information. So there’s no end point, because there’s no act of conversion in this, so there’s no reason to remove a person from this sequence.

Joanna Wiebe: So they’re going to get these emails throughout. Our goal is for a couple of them, so there are 12 total, but two of those are only going to be triggered by certain acts. So that’s something that we just have to make sure is technically possible, which we’re going to find out soon. Awesome. Anonymous just gave me a nice little message side, so that’s cool. Thanks, anonymous. Oh, and Alfred is back. Cool, I’ll tempt you with one more question. “How about sequences based on personas?” Meaning would you create unique sequences for each persona. Like unique email sequences? Yes.

Joanna Wiebe: So we actually have, that’s our second test that we’re planning. It’s not about personas as much as it is the features that someone uses, these three core features that are really popular for people starting the upgrade process, like they’re a good trigger for it. So they’re using these features, and what does that mean about the job they’re trying to do? So it’s not about personas as much as it is this job needs to be done approach. Which is like the other side of personas. I don’t operate in personas that much, but you could actually give it a shot for personas, and again, hopefully we’ll get through a good test here with Canba for this one, and then do the next round of tests that’s more specific to the job to be done.

Joanna Wiebe: Cool. Amy says, “What is the process for testing? Do you charge for the writing and then test and then adjust as part of your initial contract? Will the follow up be more of a financial investment?” So I’m not gonna talk about the Canba stuff here, but what I will say is the process for testing, so when we are quoting any work that we do, we always build in validation and we include that for zero dinero because, I know it’s not dinero. We include it because we want to know. I want to know, and I don’t want to say, no we won’t test it, we’re just gonna run it because we don’t want to pay more for it. No, please don’t ever do that.

Joanna Wiebe: So we include testing and validation at no extra cost. We do not charge for it because we want you to test it. We charge for the other things, but we make research into our main price as well. So all the parts of our process are you can’t pull pieces off, and I’d recommend the same for you. Cool, those are all of our questions. Thanks, guys. So we just chatted out … okay, he just asked one more question. One more, okay. How do you follow it after you turn it over to them? You don’t turn it over to them. So you present your copy to the clients, you get their feedback in that meeting, and then you go and you redo, you make the small changes, because by the time you get to the point of presenting your copy, people shouldn’t be surprised by what’s happening, and you should have good reasons for everything that you did.

Joanna Wiebe: So how do you follow it up? Do you turn it over? You present your copy, you make those final edits, you go back and you look over the copy very quickly one last time with the key approver, and then you say, “Okay, let’s put this into your testing platform now, or your email platform.” Here’s what we’re gonna have to do next, and you manage that. Of course you do. That’s how you’re gonna get results to share in your portfolio. If you just hand it over, what are the chances you’re gonna make work for themselves in a lot of cases. Because a lot of people are like, and this is something I’ve heard several times, I heard it early on in the testing part of my career. And that was, “Well, is there any chance that this could lose? Do you really believe that this copy isn’t gonna beat the control?”

Joanna Wiebe: And when you think about it, you’re like, “Well no, I really believe that we’ll beat the control, but I don’t know that.” But some clients want to just skip over testing because they’re like, “Well, why would we send only 50% of our traffic to a winning new page or a new email when we could send all of it to that?” That’s why you wanna make sure that testing is baked in. Okay. Hopefully that helps. We are wrapped up with this week’s Tutorial Tuesday, thanks everybody for your awesome engagement throughout. Replay will be up soon, and yes, we will let you know how this goes. Okay, thanks everybody. Have a great week, and we’ll see you next Tuesday. Bye.

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