The 3-part conversion copywriting process for newbies

Presented live on Tuesday, August 28, 2018

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New to copywriting? Are you still trying to figure out this conversion copywriting thing? In this tutorial, conversion copywriter, Joanna Wiebe, teaches you her 3-part conversion copywriting process so you can finally get it right!

This tutorial is brought to you by Airstory writing software.

TRANSCRIPT

Joanna Wiebe: Hello everybody. Welcome to Tutorial Tuesdays. Today, Joanna here from Copy Hackers. Sarah is having technical difficulties, so hopefully she’ll be able to join us in a bit. For now, I’m going to be running this whole show by myself. Can you believe it? The things that I do.

Joanna Wiebe: Cool. People are like woo hoo, I made it. Well done, you. I also have tech problems this morning though, so it’s a weird tech day. It’s like Google, just kidding, I was going to make a Google Donald Trump joke. Okay. Anyway. Okay, quick housekeeping before we dive into today’s tutorial. Chat is where you can throw any of the comments you have as we’re going. People are already saying cool things. [inaudible 00:00:54]. Heather as well. Tech has been dodgey the last week for us. My actual keyboard died today. I have to go to the Apple store and pick one up at lunchtime. That’s fun.

Joanna Wiebe: Tuesday techtorial, well done. Yes, the cats are back. They’re in a mood. It’s like the season are changing, I guess. We have one cat there, and then the other one is around there. Okay, good.

Joanna Wiebe: Now that we’ve got that covered, chat is where you put any thoughts that you have, that you would like to share that are worth sharing. If you want them to go straight to me, just hit all panelists. I’m the only panelist today, so it’ll go to me directly. I will not be able to answer them when I’m actually presenting. Most likely I will not be able to. I’ll do my best. If you want to just say hey to everybody or get in on a conversation, make sure you’re sending that message in chat to everyone, depending, it might say everyone for you or all attendees.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, cool. We also have the Q&A area. If you have questions at the end of this training today, this tutorial, and you want to ask them, you want to just make sure that they’re in the queue, so I don’t miss them. Then go ahead and put them in Q&A. We will have time at the end of today’s tutorial to take those.

Joanna Wiebe: We are recording this, so let’s dive in. Hi to everybody who’s saying hi. Someone said I never got the tutorial link this time. Her name’s Sierra? But you’re here, so that’s good. It worked out, that’s awesome. People are saying feeling intrigued, great topic today. Hey, Jake, thanks. Oh, you’re using an old link, okay. Yeah, it works, because once you register once, it’ll probably be the same link for you all the time. Just so you know.

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah. All right. Today’s tutorial is on the conversion copywriting process. This is one I decide to do because, and this is going to … Anyway. I decided to do this one today because when you sign up for Copy Hackers, for a free ebook or web, you opted in for, whatever lead magnet brought you to Copy Hackers, you are redirected to a thank you page, the cats. You’re redirected to a thank you page that asks you a question. That question’s, some of you might know it because it’s been up for a couple of weeks now. Two weeks or something. That question is, what was going on in your life that brought you to sign up for, whatever it might be, Copy Hackers today.

Joanna Wiebe: One of the bigger trends that we’re seeing in the responses is, a lot of people who are like, I’m thinking of becoming a copywriter. We regularly get emails from people who are like, look, my construction job is over, or I’m thinking of retiring, or I did retire, I used to be a teacher, and now I want to be a copywriter. There’re a lot of people who are still starting to, and we tend to jump ahead to okay, you’re writing copy, here’s how to write an email. Some people are still just figuring this stuff out.

Joanna Wiebe: This tutorial is for you, if you are new to conversion copy writing or to any copy writing at all, and you want to get it right right out of the gate, this will help you today. A lot of people sit down when they’re writing copy, you sit down and you look at the screen and you start typing things. You wonder why it doesn’t feel right, why it’s like okay, this is writing, but how is this going to get people to say yes to me? How is me thinking aloud on the page, even if it sounds nice, how is it going to convince people to say yes?

Joanna Wiebe: That’s where you go oh no, and then you back up, you get imposter syndrome and you’re like, oh man, there’s so many things I need to learn. There probably are a lot of things to learn, it’s true, but don’t get overwhelmed by it. Let’s start with the process, because when you’re going to write copy that converts, you’re not going to sit down and just start typing out your thoughts. That’s not going to work. Good point Elizabeth, me too. That’s not going to work, sitting down and doing that is just, it’s going to cause all the problems I just mentioned.

Joanna Wiebe: Here’s what to do instead. It is a very, very simple three part process. You do not have to over-complicate it. I teach this in the Tenex Freelance Copywriter, which we’re probably going to reopen again this November, to start in January. This is what conversion copywriters know and need to know.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, really straightforward, it doesn’t have to be a terribly long tutorial today. I’m going to share it with you now. Okay, you should be sharing my screen. Three very simple steps. I will zoom in on that, hold on, just going to … that. Sure you’re seeing the … Oh, my keyboard, I forgot that it’s broken. Can that work? Cool. You should see that up close.

Joanna Wiebe: Now, this is unlikely to surprise anybody who’s been writing copy for a while again. This is again for newer people, people who are newer to copywriting and conversion copywriting in particular. We begin and we always follow this three step process. If you’re working with the client internal or external, there’s never any part of this process that is optional. There might be smaller parts, this process might be more research and less validation sometimes, but a client should never say oh, we don’t need research and discovery, don’t worry about that, just get right into writing, we just want you to write it. I appreciate that you want to go do all this other stuff, but we just want you to write it.

Joanna Wiebe: You’re not going to do that. That’s not what we do. We begin with research and discovery all the time. This tends to be the biggest part of the work, and if it’s not the biggest part of the work, 99% of the time it means you’re doing it wrong. You need to find your message in the research and discovery phase. Then and only then, once you’ve done all sorts of listening to their team, a little, but also to their prospects, their customers, their ex-customers, I’m not going to get too deep into that part today, but research and discovery is everything. That’s where your messages will come from. That’s where your messaging hierarchy and messaging hierarchy, if you’re new to that, it’s just the order the messages go in, and not just on the page, but which messages need to be seen first, and which messages support those bigger messages.

Joanna Wiebe: Your research will drive your messaging hierarchy. It’ll also drive the actual … Oh, robot voice. Robot voice. [inaudible 00:07:57]. Okay. Robot voice passes. Is it passing? Dave Collins is here. I don’t look like a robot? That was me doing my robot. No, I don’t know how to do it.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay. We’re back, and all … That’s good. That all got recorded. Yay. Okay. Good, we’re back. Awesome.

Joanna Wiebe: Research and discovery, great. That’s where we do most of our work as conversion copywriters, because we are listening, we’re eavesdropping. Then, comes synthesizing everything we heard and turning that into written copy. Actual copy, and then wire framing that and editing in the awesome as we like to say. The third step is validation and experimentation. A lot of people think oh, this is where you AB test. Oh no, my clients won’t AB test, what am I supposed to do?

Joanna Wiebe: Validation is an important part of this. You can’t always AB test everything. That’s a big thing to know going into this as a conversion copywriter. This is true whether you’ve been doing this for a while or not. You cannot AB test everything. It’s a beautiful dream, but it is only a dream, and there are problems with AB testing. We won’t get into that today either. The goal in this third phase of your conversion copywriting process is to make sure you’re putting the best possible version out for your one reader or your ideal prospect. Validation can help with that.

Joanna Wiebe: Validating is putting copy in front of people who are likely to be your prospect. That’s to see about persuasion, are you being pulled in, watching where people trail off. This can be using click tracking and scroll mapping to see, before it even goes live. Put it out there on a landing page and drive traffic to that actual domain that’s standing alone. See how it’s going, see where people are being lost, et cetera, et cetera.

Joanna Wiebe: Five second test, is another really good option here, where you can say okay, we’re worried about the clarity of the homepage headline, or the landing page headline, or the actual pricing area on the sales page. We’re worried about clarity, we’re worried, are we getting specific enough. Five second test won’t tell you if your message is persuasive, but it can tell you really good things like, did people even understand what that headline was about.

Joanna Wiebe: Validation and experimentation is where you’re saying okay, here’s the copy we have that’s written based on all of this great voice of customer data, which is what we call it, voice of customer data, which is the research. All of this stuff fed it, but we still can’t say for sure, if this is going to be the absolute right version to go with, or if it’s in its optimum state to actually launch it. We’re going to go on five second test, get some quick gut reactions on clarity, on how specific things are, on whether ideas are sticking or images are coming to life for people. They understand your value property and can repeat it back to you and tell you what it means. That’s what fivesecondtest.com is really great for. That’s the third phase.

Joanna Wiebe: This is the whole process. Varoon, sorry if I’m saying that wrong, five second test helps clarify the final offer for me. That’s great. It’ll help with a lot of things having to do with clarity. Don’t expect a lot more than that, but it can help you make sure, and if you’re familiar with Tutorial Tuesdays, you’ll know that we have seven sweeps. The clarity sweep is always the number one sweep. You want to always go over your copy and make sure that above all, it’s clear. Above everything else, it’s clear. If five second test can help you with that, that’s a huge win for you. It can really point out problems that you have.

Joanna Wiebe: Lander has a question here about missing the research and discovery discussion. We didn’t really get too much into it, so don’t worry, Lander. Do you guys use SEM Rush for any research, too. We didn’t get into all the things we use for research. Absolutely, I don’t use SEM Rush, but I know others who do.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, cool. That’s the process. It is always, always, always your process without fail. Then, I wanted to touch on this, because it’s been coming up a lot, especially in our mastermind that we run. The writing itself. When you do the research and discovery, you are likely to put together documents that synthesize everything that you’re hearing, your messaging hierarchy, all of the things that I already mentioned for that.

Joanna Wiebe: Then when you sit down to write, I’ve seen some people do all that research and then still go over to a document and stare at the page and go, okay. What. No. You don’t have to do that. We actually can make it a bajillion times simpler than staring at the screen and this is, don’t over complicate your job. Your job is to be extremely good at listening and to make sure that at the end, it sounds good. That might sound like what? Let me show you.

Joanna Wiebe: When you’re actually writing the copy, what I do is, I use two screens. That’s it. I take the research that I’ve done and I put it on one half of the screen, and then I put my document on the other half of the screen. Then, I look at the research. Let’s say, I’m going to do this right now. I’m going to pull this one out. Bear with me. I know, everyone’s like, don’t you have a MacBook, there are smarter ways to do that. I don’t know shortcuts. I don’t do shortcuts. I make life hard. No I don’t. I don’t know what the shortcut is to make your screen go into two different things. Please don’t get angry with me for being … I didn’t get training on my Mac. I’m just glad that my iPhone works with my MacBook, that’s all.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, I’ve got two things showing here now. As I mentioned, we have this survey that we run on the thank you page when you sign up for Copy Hackers, where it asks what was going on in your life that brought you to sign up for Copy Hackers today. This is one of the thank you surveys that we run based on where you sign up.

Joanna Wiebe: Then we just have all the responses. If I were to write copy for Copy Hackers, for why you should choose Copy Hackers, what the reasons are that people sign up for Copy Hackers, then I could just sit here, open up my document itself and let’s say I was going to write a page for why new copywriters or why, let’s say I have a question about okay, what do people think when they think copywriters and come to the site. I’m going to … Oh, my keyboard. I keep forgetting it’s broken. I have to use my laptop one. I’m going to just search copywriter. This is just an example, you don’t have to search. I have to give you a topic to write. Here’s what I’m going to be writing about.

Joanna Wiebe: I search the word copywriter in our results. I can go through, we are searching for a copywriter, and then someone writes two days ago, you see, I wanted to become a copywriter but I gave up after seeing Alibaba’s AI copywriting tool. I thought to myself, there’s no point in learning now, in just two years, that thing will murder all human copywriters. I decided I couldn’t let that scare me anymore, so I’m back, I’m here to fight the good fight. I want to serve the human race. I want to defend all human copywriters. That is why I signed up.

Joanna Wiebe: You’re not always going to get people who write things like that. That’s pretty awesome. Well done, putting that response together. Makes it nice to go through survey results. It’s not always going to be that way. What we could do here, if we’re writing a page that’s supposed to maybe convince people to become a copywriter or it’s time to write a long form sales page, to sell a program on becoming a copywriter, brand new, you’re not a copywriter, you want to figure out what to do. We would sit here and look at that exact line, maybe even copy it directly over, and then just paste it here and start actually just writing this into copy. That might sound like, what do you mean?

Joanna Wiebe: Take this and use this as potentially not, I want to serve the human race, I want to defend all human copywriters, but maybe there’s a section on the page that’s about if people have an objection to becoming a freelance copywriter, or a new copywriter, where they’re like, aren’t there bots that do this now, this becomes the core of what … I just tried to use my keyboard. Of what we write in that section. I’m not going to sit here and dream up, what do people think when they’re writing, when they’re wondering if they should become a copywriter. That’s never going to be useful.

Joanna Wiebe: I can come up with that and say, oh, they’re wondering will they get jobs. Will they make any money. We’re not ever going to get as deeply into what people are really thinking until we start going through the data itself. Now, we’ve taken what I’m showing here, this type form that I’m showing here, and we have exported into a Google Doc, into a Google Sheet, and we go through it and we organize things and tag things, and we’ve cut this all up with the Airstory research, to tag things there as well. It’s not always going to be a matter of just looking at this and copying and pasting.

Joanna Wiebe: Very often, in simply a matter of having your research open on one side, identifying important pieces of it, which is the listening part of your job, you’re there to listen, not to write. Identify the most engaging stuff, the stuff that makes you pay attention, and then simply slightly revise that to turn it into copy. That’s it. That’s the whole job. That’s 90% of the job. Then you go over and you do your sweeps and you make sure everything pulls together in a non-disjointed way.

Joanna Wiebe: That’s your whole job. That’s everything. That’s simplifying it, I know, because maybe when you sit down to do this, you’re looking at this and going, but how? How do I turn that into copy? You might be like okay, that actually isn’t going to work as copy, but I wanted to become a copywriter but I gave up, so I gave up after seeing Alibaba’s AI copywriting tool. We can just save. That could be a crosshead that introduces a section that’s all about why you shouldn’t give up on this. That might be an email we’re writing, when people are worried about whether they’re going to be replaced by a bot of some kind.

Joanna Wiebe: Point being, you don’t sit there and just start writing. Split your screen in two and just take what people are saying and put it on the page.

Joanna Wiebe: All right. I’m going to stop sharing now. That is the entire tutorial, in a perfect 20 minutes as promised. Almost never delivered on, because we almost always go over. Hope that helps you. Again, three phases. Research and discovery, writing, wire framing and editing, and validation and experimentation.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, now the questions that we have if you have them, throw them in Q&A. Isaac says, how do you deal with a client that wants all email to be super short. Testing. Email is very, very easy to test. I don’t know why. I would dig into why they want all email to be super short. That’s question number one. Help them diagnose their misconceptions. Then, walk them through when copy, when short copy works well, and when long copy works better. You’re there to coach your client through this. Remember, you’re the expert. If your client doesn’t recognize you as the expert, they might not be your client very long. That would be my take on it. I know that sounds like easier said than done, because everybody has bills to pay and things like that.

Joanna Wiebe: Be careful not to waste your energy. Let’s say you’ve got 10 years as a copywriter, and you give up three years of those to a client, or many clients, who’re going to burn you out with really crazy ideas, that are just whipped up out of the clear blue sky. Emails should always be short. Just be careful not to let them take up too much of your space, because where did they get that idea from? Where did they get that idea from? Why do they believe that’s true? Start there.

Joanna Wiebe: Isaac then asked, yes, I wonder how exactly do you turn BOC data into actual copy. Would love to see an example someday. I was going to show you an example today, until I realized the example I was going to show you is protected by an NDA. Unfortunately, I realized that. It’s a really good example. Unfortunately, today isn’t going to cover that, but another day down the road, I might even just ask the client if they’re cool with me showing people that, especially once their new copy goes live.

Joanna Wiebe: Yes, I want to show you. I had every intention of showing you. I forget sometimes that I’ve signed NDAs.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay, Reno asked, what are the seven sweeps of your copy. The seven sweeps are on copyhackers.com in the tutorials areas or any page you’re on has a sidebar, with links to tutorials in it. Scroll to the bottom of that sidebar, and sometimes it’s tricky because of the way that sites are laid out. Scroll to the bottom of it and you’ll see the seven sweeps there. Cool. There’s training on each one of them. Easy peasy.

Joanna Wiebe: W says not so on point, but I’ve been wondering in general about creativity in conversion copywriting. I noticed [inaudible 00:22:12] emails are incredibly fun and creative, you pop in these snappy lines and zany characters. How important is it to say things in a fresh, fun, interesting new way? That’s a branding thing, really. If you’re speaking to enterprises, you may not want to go too crazy with the voice. You have to be really careful. Too much voice can make things feel a little cheaper sometimes. That might sound like what, how do you know? This is 15 years of watching this stuff happen. A lot of copywriters love to dive into oh, the voice. Oh, I’m going to bring this to life with this, I’m going to throw these colloquialisms in, and it’s going to sound like oh, here’s whatever.

Joanna Wiebe: It can come off as, because it’s heavy handed, it comes off sometimes slightly amateurish. I think that it’s a matter of doing your best to just walk that fine line, and if it feels like you’re getting too zany as you put it, pull back. Better to be less zany than too much. Now, that again depends on your brand. Our Copy Hackers emails, especially the ones that [inaudible 00:23:27] writes, people really like them. Some people really like them and some people don’t. I gave a talk at the copywriter club in real life in New York last February, where we listed out, we showed screenshots of people sending emails to us that were … Overwritten guff was one, was a reply to one of the emails that we wrote. Things like that. Some people really like it and some people won’t.

Joanna Wiebe: If you’re cool with polarizing people that way, it’s not an aggressive polarization. We’re not left versus right or some really weird thing going on. Just be careful. I would just say that just be careful. How important is it to say things in a fresh, fun, entertaining way. How important is it to your audience to hear things in that fresh, fun, entertaining way.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay. Rico says, how much is too much research? Is there such a thing? I haven’t experienced there being too much research ever. You can feel overwhelmed by it, but we call our research process an immersive message finding process. That’s really almost like when actors get in character, and then stay in character and you hear about them going into a coffee shop as some Lord of the Rings character, because they were in character. That’s about immersing yourself in it, so that you can authentically produce in that.

Joanna Wiebe: That’s the same thing here. Can you really immerse yourself in just tons of insights into what prospects and customers are thinking and feeling, what they want, what the product can and cannot do for them. All of that stuff, I’ve never experienced too much research. I’ve definitely felt the pains of too little though.

Joanna Wiebe: W says, how about a little more info on wire framing. We get into wire framing in my mastermind, and in the Tenex Freelance Copywriter. I can definitely do that. I have moved over the years away from lo-fi wire frames to producing more high fidelity wire frames. They tend to look more like the completed page, with just places where images should go, and then instruction on what that image should be. Everything else is largely done.

Joanna Wiebe: I can do that. I think just a matter of identifying where people need to … I guess we just start out with early wire framing, but that’s something that we can definitely put it in an upcoming tutorial. Thanks Debbie.

Joanna Wiebe: Sarah says, how much weight do you place on SEO as a web copywriter? I don’t identify as a web copywriter, just as a note. You may be like, semantics. It’s not, because it’s my rule. A web copywriter is worried about things like SEO. It also feels like an old term though, just as a side note for me, as someone who lives and breathes this stuff 24/7 for 15 years. As a conversion copywriter though, or even as somebody who’s just in digital marketing, SEO is a consideration. It’s rarely up there for me, in the consideration, though. There are many, many ways to get traffic to a page and to your site. Many ways. Many great ways. Some of them not that affordable, others affordable.

Joanna Wiebe: What happens when you get them there? I’m worried about once they’re on that page, are they going to be convinced and convert, say yes to us in some way. For me, I’m not that worried about it. Other people, maybe those who do identify as a web copywriter, would put it further up. I know that when I was called senior web copywriter at Intuit a bajillion years ago, SEO was something, I worked very closely with the SEO team on everything, all the time. I also worked with the legal team on everything all the time.

Joanna Wiebe: You have a lot of considerations when you’re writing copy.

Joanna Wiebe: Anne says, moving this to Q&A, whoops. Are there any tips on how to conduct good research to make sure you have a lot to work off of? I know there was chat about … I just saw the comment about Bob Fly [inaudible 00:27:43] that’s so funny. I still think about that fondly. Yeah, we get into this in copy school quite a bit, into the research [inaudible 00:27:54] get into our first book, which is available free on copyhackers.com, it’s called Where Stellar Messages Come From. It is all about research.

Joanna Wiebe: Now, it’s seven years old, and some of it is outdated. Usertesting.com is sort of a pain in the ass these days. Their pricing is just, it doesn’t even work for small businesses at all anymore. You have to be an enterprise to get anything. Things like that are slightly outdated. Yeah, I would start with that free ebook. Go there, and then we’ll do other tutorials on that. You want to do surveys, interviews that you get transcribed. All sorts of it. You can go through chat transcripts, things like that. There’s so much. There’s so much to do. We want to make sure that we’re focusing on learning, so that we can write better copy, not learning for the sake of learning.

Joanna Wiebe: Only focus on things that actually matter to what you’re trying to write, which means you don’t necessarily have to say okay, show me your Google analytics when you’re writing a long form sales page. You could just ask the team for the one or two data points you might need, instead of going into someone’s GA and wasting a lot of time in there, when you could just ask someone else to pull a report for you, with the little pieces that you might need.

Joanna Wiebe: More to follow on that. Debbie says, is there a difference between emails and webpages in this aspect? I assume that means when it comes to writing this way. Nope. It’s all writing the stuff. Follow that process and don’t sit there and stare at the page. Templates, we’re not talking in this, when we get into writing, wire framing and editing, that includes using templates, using frameworks, getting into more of formulas and things, that all happens in the writing, wire framing and editing process. If you’re like, when I’m writing templates, you guys teach us all sorts of … I’m writing emails, and you guys teach us all sorts of templates or theme plates, yep. It’s true. You should use those when you’re actually in the writing process. The parts that fill in those templates should come from voice of customer data.

Joanna Wiebe: Michael says, could I walk you through how we wire frame. Yes in another tutorial, I will. I will put that on the list probably in October or November. Stay tuned. Yes. Then, Sarah says what software do I use. I wire frame in Photoshop, actually. I think it’s one of those things where I’ve taught myself how to do it. You can picture roots pulling you down. There’s no way for me to escape Photoshop now. I have to use it. That’s what I use.

Joanna Wiebe: I used Balsamiq for wire framing when I first started wire framing. Then, that was before they had their nice switch to get away from the sketch look and turn on the cleanup, UI look, which is much nicer to work in. I switched away from that from Balsamiq early on, because it looked so sketch-like, which is the point. Clients, didn’t look right for some of the clients I was working with. I switched to Photoshop, and now Balsamiq is better anyway. I don’t use sketch, I don’t understand it.

Joanna Wiebe: Barbara says, how much time do you allocate to research? Depends. I’ve got a tech client who works at the speed of light and wants things turned around rapidly. I feel your pain. Right now, I’ve been overwhelmed with all the research I’ve got, but wish I’d asked more time to process it. We just went through this intensive, for a very cool tech company, a two week sprint to do a ton of research and develop value proposition options for them. Two weeks is nothing. I would never agree to that, but I was like, I’m up for the challenge. Which was crazy, because I just, it ages you.

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, how much time can you get. It depends how you work. If you’re somebody who, if you have four weeks to do something, you’ll do it all the night before it’s due. If that’s how you’ve worked traditionally, then shorten up that period anyway, so you just get down to work. I tend to find that the research is, I think of it in circles. The research circle is this big, the writing and wire framing is this big, and then validation and experimentation is maybe a little bit smaller. The research is a huge amount. Now, the more you work with the client, the smaller that research balloon gets, and the bigger other ones may get in comparison to it.

Joanna Wiebe: Research is everything. It’s time well spent. We look at the process and we keep research separate from writing. You should start with research, but research is writing. It’s still part of, it’s fully part of writing. Don’t worry too much about, oh, I’m spending so much time on research. Because that’s time well spent. That’s actual writing work that you’re doing in there.

Joanna Wiebe: Corbett says, how do you use Airstory for wire framing. We don’t. Airstory is not built for that. It’s built for turning your notes into long copy and content.

Joanna Wiebe: Montrell says, in general, how long does the entire process take? For example, a typical blog post. This one isn’t about writing a blog post, but you could absolutely use this for writing a blog post. You’d likely capture and document the sources. Not necessarily from a survey. You could say whatever. A blog post is like an article or an essay. You might be persuading people with it, but it’s not there with the explicit intent of trying to get people to say yes to a conversion metric of some kind, like opting in or paying, buying, things like that. It’s a hard one to answer, Montrell. We’re really focusing more on copy that converts, rather than content.

Joanna Wiebe: Sarah says, when you wire frame, do you leave it with the client? Sorry, I just saw a whole bunch of things coming in. Oh, Mofo. Oh, are you guys still talking about that? That’s amazing. Yeah, okay. Sorry, I got distracted. For those who’re watching the replay, there is a good amount of chat going on about an interaction that I had with Mr. Bob Bly, legendary copywriter, when I wrote a post for Copy Blogger. Mr. Bly left a comment that I did not feel was very productive. But I didn’t say much, others jumped to my defense, as Somyu says, Bob felt that the word mofo, which I use in my byline, the time when we were saying, Copy Hackers teaches startups to convert like mofos or something, or where startups learn to covert like mofo. Mofo is just a word that I say. A big U2 fan, back on Pop the album, one of those songs was called mofo. I think I was 17, and I didn’t know any better and I was like, oh, mofo, that’s a thing. It just became part of how I talk and think, and I didn’t question it.

Joanna Wiebe: Mr. Bly questioned it. That was fun. Anyway. That’s a side note, if you’re watching the replay.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay. Sarah says, when you wire frame, do you leave it with the client to bring to the web developer/designer, or do you work with the developer/designer yourself? Work with them yourself. Present ideally, when you present your wired copy, and we get into copy presentations in other tutorials, so go through the library of tutorials, for presenting your copy. When you do, do your best to have the designer in the room when you’re presenting the copy, so you can say this is a lo-fi wire frame. We just want to note that this is not design, but it is a lo-fi wire frame. Then just work directly with them.

Joanna Wiebe: Most of the time, you’ll already have had discussions with the designer, along the way. There shouldn’t be a weird feeling of, you’re coming in and stepping on my territory. It shouldn’t get to that.

Joanna Wiebe: Manuel finishes off our questions with the perfect finisher, will there be a replay for this tutorial. There will. All of our tutorials, almost all of them are recorded and shared in our tutorial library on copyhackers.com. If Sarah’s tech were working, she would now chat out that link. You can go to copyhackers.com and just search in the search bar tutorials, and you will get all, almost all of our past tutorials, including this one. It will be out later today. That is our hope.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay. Thank you everybody. Mofo hackers, yes. Thanks everyone. Thanks for chiming in and all this cool chat that was happening over here as well. I really hope that this process helps you if you’re newer to conversion copywriting, or if you were just wondering what the difference is between conversion copywriting and more traditional copywriting. This should be a good start for you. We will see you in our next Tutorial Tuesday. The week after that, I believe, I am away in Dublin. There’ll be a break, but not next week. I’ll be here next week. We will see you then.

Joanna Wiebe: Thanks everyone. Bye.

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FREELANCING
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OPTIMIZATION
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CONTENT
How to write an epic blog post
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THE SEVEN SWEEPS (Editing)
Sweep 1: The Clarity Sweep
Sweep 2: The Voice + Tone Sweep
Sweeps 3 & 4: The Believability Sweeps
Sweep 5: The Specificity Sweep
Sweep 6: The Heightened Emotion Sweep
Sweep 7: The Zero Risk Sweep

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Our most popular tutorials

COPYWRITING
How to write headlines
How to be specific in your copy
How to write great bullet lists
How to write a long-form sales page
How to write compelling “agitation” copy
How to write holiday copy
3 essential copy techniques to use daily

AD COPYWRITING
How to write an Adwords ad
How to write Facebook-compliant ads

EMAIL COPYWRITING
How to write welcome emails
How to write a launch-day sales email
How to write a last-day launch email
How to write a cold email
How to write cold emails for services
How to write a trial-ending SaaS email
How to write a post-welcome SaaS email
How to write TOFU emails

FREELANCING
How to write a project proposal
How to present your copy to clients
How to get more proposals approved
How to wireframe your landing pages

PLANNING & PRE-WORK
How to research a blog post
How to plan a SaaS onboarding funnel
How to use Amazon review mining
How to do a content audit
How to know what your visitor’s thinking
How to use SEO landing pages
Creating a Launch Command Center
How to evergreen your course sales
A 3-part copywriting process for newbies

OPTIMIZATION
How to optimize a headline
How to optimize a SaaS sequence
How to optimize content for SEO
How to validate your copy
Optimize your email sequence with Trello

CONTENT
How to write an epic blog post
How to write a mass-appeal blog post
How to write funny content
How to make your writing sound good
How to keep readers reading
Blog post formula for authority building
How to write an ultimate guide

THE SEVEN SWEEPS (Editing)
Sweep 1: The Clarity Sweep
Sweep 2: The Voice + Tone Sweep
Sweeps 3 & 4: The Believability Sweeps
Sweep 5: The Specificity Sweep
Sweep 6: The Heightened Emotion Sweep
Sweep 7: The Zero Risk Sweep